<HTML><HEAD></HEAD> <BODY dir=ltr> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: #080000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <DIV>I don’t think this could have been said any better. Myself, I report times solely for the benefit of other gazers and any other persons that might be interested. If that should include the NPS in any form, so be it. If it caused me grief to do so, I wouldn’t. Yellowstone should be all about enjoying yourself while there, and nothing else. As for gazers what David said is the God’s honest truth. We are people, nothing more, with all the good (and bad) that entails. For anyone to say any one person of any group is representative of the rest is just off base. We all have good days, and we all have bad days. And when some of us are in the park for 2 weeks at a stretch, or even more, you are a more likely to see a bad moment, or maybe even a bad ay. It happens. We’re just people after all. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: #080000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Dan Roach</DIV> <DIV style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma"> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5"> <DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=david.schwarz@alumni.duke.edu href="mailto:david.schwarz@alumni.duke.edu">David Schwarz</A> </DIV> <DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, May 13, 2012 10:58 PM</DIV> <DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=geysers@lists.wallawalla.edu href="mailto:geysers@lists.wallawalla.edu">Geyser Observation Reports</A> </DIV> <DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Geysers] Geyser Gazing, chat page and the Sput (GOSA)</DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none"> <DIV> </DIV>A few things to say here: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First, re. North Goggles:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I recommend that recording standards from previous active phases apply here.  Specifically, minor eruptions of North Goggles consist of sustained, massive bursting and jetting, coincide with an immediate loss of water level in Goggles Spring, and last 20 seconds to a minute.  In the past, minors generally began within seconds after North Goggles started an overflow.  Based on videos I've seen from this year, I believe this still holds.  An arbitrary height standard seems silly.  This is a very distinct kind of activity from a normal rise-and-boil or a major eruption.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Major eruptions consist of sustained jetting for a period of minutes, generally to greater heights than minors, and end with a steam phase.  In the past, they started after very long periods of continuous overflow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One-foot boils immediately upon reaching overflow and throughout an extended overflow are very frequent when North Goggles is active, and have generally not been recorded as eruptions in and of themselves.  I strongly recommend maintaining this distinction.  They do not drain the system (the accompanying overflow is not cut short) nor do they interrupt the 10-ish minute overflow cycle and delay the following overflow as minor eruptions do.  They're just a normal overflow in which the geyser is hot enough to do a nice boil.  Furthermore, boils on North Goggles are not even necessarily discrete events--when building up to a major eruption, it boils continuously to about a foot for upwards of 20 minutes.  The fact that such boils are capable of generating sufficient steam to register to viewers watching the webcam is _quite_ valuable information, and should be taken into account in interpreting both past and future webcam observations.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regarding the logbook, recording times, calling times on the radio, cliquish gazers, etc.:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For what it's worth, I speak from the experience of 10 full summers in the park and 11 subsequent years in the real world with only brief forays back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it causes you stress or inconvenience to report times--via the radio, in person, whatever--don't do it.  It's not worth the aggravation.  If the current in-group ignores, dismisses, or is openly rude to you, do your own thing, with or without other, more agreeable people.  If getting information out is important to you, no one can stop you making reports here, and, as I'll elaborate below, I think descriptive reports here are usually more valuable than columns of numbers in the logbook anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some years, everyone and his dog is allowed to write in the logbook, grease pencils are handed out like breath mints, and assistance with observation and posting predictions of the major geysers is welcomed and encouraged by the district naturalist.  In the 1980s, there were even a small number of volunteer positions to do precisely that.  Other years, the logbook is treated like a sacred text, to be altered only by properly anointed scribes, and possession of a grease pencil is grounds for a official reprimand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either way, there's nothing earth-shaking about getting your times into the Old Faithful logbook.  Anyone who derives a sense of self-importance from getting information into the logbook is drastically misguided and/or has disturbingly low standards of self-importance.  The geology division has made it fairly clear that, with few exceptions, and for whatever reason, geyser-related research is of little interest to them, and therefore isn't of official interest to the Park Service.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you make a call on the radio, therefore, your audience is us--other gazers.  If a member of the Old Faithful interpretive staff hears a call that's useful to them, good.  If they have time to jot it down in the logbook, great.  If they need help and can get it by making a radio request, that's a bonus, but that is not to my mind the primary purpose of the radios.  For most of the time I was in the park, the visitor center didn't even _have_ a gazer-compatible radio.  The radios are for relaying useful information to each other--Giant is having a hot period, Fan and Mortar are in a pause, North Goggles has been overflowing for 45 minutes and has started boiling, Depression erupted at 1325, holy crap I think that's Mastiff, etc.  If I make a call on the radio, it's because I think there may be someone out there who might be able to use that information to decide where they want to be when.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you're concerned about getting your data into the permanent record, then radios are the worst way to go about it.  This listserv is far more widely accessible--and frankly, I have more confidence that I'll be able to look up listserv records in the future than that I'll be able to retrieve a copy of a given year's logbook from whatever black hole it's cast into at the end of the season.  I'd also rank The Sput and The Transactions as good receptacles for knowledge, as well as public websites like Geyser Times.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Speaking for myself, I appreciate any effort that anyone makes to ensure that we have a communal record of what geysers did what and when.  While I agree that it's not worth logging every 1-foot rise-and-boil from North Goggle as an eruption, the fact that it's having them during and after Lion series--which matches Allan Friedman's description from 1985 in The Transactions 1, and observations by myself and others in the 1990s--is worth recording, as it has now been, here, on this forum.  I'd rather have the descriptions and anecdotes here, with supporting data as available, than pages of numbers that tell me nothing beyond that geyser X did something at YY:YY.  The latter tells me that geyser X was active.  The former tells me what the activity was like--more interesting, more useful to historians, and more useful to _me_ the next time I'm watching geyser X.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for gazers, they're a mixed bag.  Like Dave said, the group has a tendency to cliquishness.  Some are elitist.  Some are brusque with people they don't know, some to the point of shocking rudeness.  Some will talk your ear off.  Some are flat out nuts.  Some you just have to catch on the right day.  Let's be honest, we've got a strange shared interest, and it draws a remarkably diverse, if often bizarre, cross-section of the population.  You'll be much happier if you can just shrug most of the social weirdness off and get on with the business of being on vacation in Yellowstone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your enjoyment of your time in Yellowstone depends on the local politics of the day, whether gazer, Park Service, or both, I assure you, more often that not, you're going to have a bad time.  It's just how the place is.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rip the "talk" key off your radio, throw away your notebook and just consider yourself a tourist, if that's what it takes.  It can be liberating.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>David Schwarz</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV class=gmail_quote>On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 2:44 PM, <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:inezaustin@aol.com" target=_blank>inezaustin@aol.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=gmail_quote><FONT color=black face=arial> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I am done.  I will no longer contribute to the Sput, post on the listserv, announce on the radio or write on the CamChat.  My 55 years of notebooks will not be going anywhere.  Once I am done I will trash them.<BR><BR>Today, Jim decreed that no North Goggle minors less than 8 feet are to be recorded in the book or announced on the radio.  <BR><BR>In addition, he said that I had gone into the Visitor Center managed to get the log book and written times in it.  The truth being that I was in the Visitor Center 2 nights ago giving them times, that they need to lock up, handed me the book and pen and said to enter them.  Not quite the same thing.  It seems that my name is no longer in the book, only folks that Jim vets are allowed to be in the book.  Apparently the ranger thought I was someone else, although we had talked several times.  I even asked him as he hurried away "you want me the write these in" and he replied yes, and to listen to the radio and record any I heard.  So since the story being touted is  a lie, I am done.<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><BR>Jim and his cronies may be great gazers, but they stifle many of the other folks and it is tolerated because he is great about recording times.  <BR><BR>So no need to post my message I sent originally, no need to post my photos of Black Sand Pool and certainly no need to publish or discuss my info for North Google. Which by the way today was interesting.  North Google for the latest Lion Series stayed up after the Lion eruption.  North Google has 1 foot minors every 11 to 12 minutes until the next Lion eruption.  This explains the steam spikes that can be seen on the web cam. When Lion appears to go out of series Google stayed up contuing its 11 minute minors, finally draining at 12:16 (last Lion minor at noon).  North Google then came back and had a 4-5 foot minor at 1301.<BR><BR>Inez<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original Message-----<BR>From: David Monteith <<A href="mailto:dmonteit@comcast.net" target=_blank>dmonteit@comcast.net</A>><BR>To: inezaustin <<A href="mailto:inezaustin@aol.com" target=_blank>inezaustin@aol.com</A>><BR>Sent: Fri, May 4, 2012 11:23 pm<BR>Subject: Re: Geyser Gazing, chat page and the Sput (GOSA)<BR><BR> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,verdana,arial,sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px"><PRE style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><TT>Inez:<BR> <BR> I read your submission to the geyser list with interest. You make many<BR> good points. The behavior of some geyser gazers can appear cliquish,<BR> rude and/or indifferent. It has been a problem for years. I remember<BR> running into the same issues when I started gazing in the early 90's and<BR> feeling hurt when it happened. <BR> <BR> I don't like that geyser gazers are often perceived as being rude but<BR> I'm not certain how to address this issue. What I've learned over the<BR> years is that the issue is very touchy. When confronted by those that<BR> feel hurt by geyser gazers' discourtesy, geyser gazers end up feeling<BR> hurt. Most geyser gazers truly try to be inclusive so it hurts when<BR> they discover that others see them differently. When people have hurt<BR> feelings they stop listening. This is true of both sides. Instead of<BR> working to fix a real problem when this issue is brought up, everyone<BR> gets hurt, stops listening and gets defensive. Ultimately, confronting<BR> geyser gazers with their perceived rudeness doesn't help to solve the<BR> problem, it actually makes the problem worse. <BR> <BR> I'm not certain how to address this issue in a way that won't put the<BR> geyser gazers on the defensive. I'd like to hear your thoughts.<BR> <BR> Two other issues you should be aware of. First, I'm heading out of town<BR> and won't be able to post the list until I get home. Second, I'm not<BR> certain where you wanted your message printed other than the geyser<BR> list.<BR> <BR> Dave<BR> <BR> </TT></PRE></DIV></DIV></FONT><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Geysers mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:Geysers@lists.wallawalla.edu" target=_blank>Geysers@lists.wallawalla.edu</A><BR><A href="https://lists.wallawalla.edu/mailman/listinfo/geysers" target=_blank>https://lists.wallawalla.edu/mailman/listinfo/geysers</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <P> <HR> _______________________________________________<BR>Geysers mailing list<BR>Geysers@lists.wallawalla.edu<BR>https://lists.wallawalla.edu/mailman/listinfo/geysers</DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>