[Geysers] Re: I absolutely agree with Scott Bryan: Clarification.

[PopcornBabe99]

I dashed my initial reply off in a few moments I had before going to work. Rereading it in the geyser email, I have to clarify, as I believe I came across sounding like I think all visitors are stupid. I don't believe that. I see what I think are trends in collective behavior patterns, but I also think perhaps a change in how we educate others about nature could be well worthwhile. I also wanted to clarify and say that I think for the most part, the NPS personnel in the Park are doing a very good job. I don't, however, like the idea of spending so much money on shuttles, new centers, whatever, all of which need personnel and/or maintenance, which costs more money, etc, in an economy which is strained enough already....besides, I think if any money is added it should go to additional rangers...more presense, more ability to get the lawbreakers. (I know, I'm dreaming ;))
Realistically, I think maintenance projects, keeping sufficient park personnel employed to handle the traffic and needs already existing, should take precedence over what might sound good on paper (like a shuttle) but be terrible in practice.... I know I don't know much, education-wise, when it comes to all the specifics of funding and the science behind the wildlife management policies and everything....The one thing I do know is, while I was living in the Park, at Old Faithful, those geysers were a whole wonderful world and the community of gazers was the best community I've ever been a part of... I've tried since, to find something community-minded I could be passionate abot and part of....hasn't happened. There's a special feeling about Yellowstone, and particularly the geysers and Old Faithful area. I dont have a college education, but as a regular person, I was able to take part in geyser gazing! I was able to contribute, however small, to the body
 of real scientific knowledge! That lit a fire that is still burning.... and I believe, access to the basins should NOT be restricted (unless thermal features start coming up through the boardwalks where they'd have to be moved away)... I think participation is one of THE best ways to get people to care about saving our park! Realigning educational focus and looking at new ways to include people in Yellowstone in ways that spark those personal fires, well, I just hope that someone can put it better than me and help save Yellowstone as BOTH a place for people AND a place for animals and plants, etc.

--- On Tue, 5/11/10, geysers-request at lists.wallawalla.edu <geysers-request at lists.wallawalla.edu> wrote:


From: geysers-request at lists.wallawalla.edu <geysers-request at lists.wallawalla.edu>
Subject: Geysers Digest, Vol 1750, Issue 3
To: geysers at lists.wallawalla.edu
Date: Tuesday, May 11, 2010, 7:10 PM


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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Trip report 4-26 to 5-1 UGB (Mary Beth Schwarz)
   2. I absolutely agree with Scott Bryan. (PopcornBabe99)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 09:12:37 -0500
From: Mary Beth Schwarz <schwarzmb at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Geysers] Trip report 4-26 to 5-1 UGB
To: Geyser Observation Reports <geysers at lists.wallawalla.edu>
Message-ID:
    <AANLkTin3ZmyfxFOfAnuVQTXv5_Z1EyDNGxwsJaR2gBHC at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

     Steve's description does seem to be an afterburst at Grand, so that
eruption was a 3+1 (and was it a "C" for Turban and Vent continuing after
Grand or did they quit and restart?).

     Based on the afterbursts I have observed at Grand, the following things
usually occur:

     1)  There are two bursts or more in the regular part of the eruption
(except for the 1burst +1 afterburst on 31 July 2009).

     2)  Turban and Vent continue after Grand ends (the exception is the
10+1 eruption of Grand in the 1990s in which Turban and Vent briefly quit
and restarted quickly).

     3)  Afterplay, which comes from the empty crater of Grand,  begins
earlier than usual (usual is at about 14 minutes after the end of the
regular part of the eruption of Grand) AND the afterplay splashes are larger
and thicker and whiter than usual (the usual afterplay is thin and silvery
splashing and not very high).

     4)  The large afterplay builds into a full sized burst of about 80-100
feet and water may pool a bit in the crater.

     The duration of Grand does not HAVE to be very long (such as 12-13) and
may be as short as 10 minutes (or in the odd 1=1 in 2009 the first and only
bursts in the regular part of the eruption was 9m 14s).  So, when Turban and
Vent continue I like to wait to see when the afterplay begins.

     The afterbursts I have seen all began before the end of the 12th minute
after the usual part of Grand's eruption finished.

     Another interesting thing is that some years the afterbursts come in
pairs over a few days or a week, so we try to see as many of the eruptions
as possible, especially after seeing an afterburst.

     Normal afterplay splashes at Grand are very pretty and worth a look
sometime if you have never seen them.  BIG afterplay is exciting to watch!

     Thanks for the detailed description Steve!

     Mary Beth Schwarz





On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 5:32 PM, stepheneide at cableone.net <
stepheneide at cableone.net> wrote:

> Greetings and  Salutations,
>
> For the Upper Geyser basin, I did not check Biscuit Basin, they are
> re-doing the boardwalk.  Island geyser was active whenever I passes.
> Someone earlier asked about the river levels, the Firehole river is high but
> not flooding anywhere, it is up to the top of the banks of the river, but
> only to just where the grass starts, nothing higher.  I hope that helps.
>
> The  Black Sand  basin appeared to be just like it was last fall at
> closing.  I did a quick walk of the boardwalks but not much more than that.
>
>
> On the main hill Bronze spring does intermittent overflowing but no
> erupting that I saw.  Little Squirt is active, the temp downloads of Ralph
> Taylor would give you good data about the intervals.  Big and Little Anemone
> were active but I didn't time any intervals.  Plume was about every hour and
> continue to be five bursts.   Improbable Geyser only  boiled intermittently
> while I was looking.   I saw nothing out of Spume/Spew/Scuba.
>
> Beehive appears to have intervals just under a day, again I bow to Ralph
> Taylor's data.  I did see one  eruption on 4-26 at 1354 with no indicator
> either  before or during the eruption.  Beehive had a big 6-8 foot Herb
> Warren splash, followed a second just seconds later, then it rose up again
> and just went for it.  Then  on 4-30 I saw Beehive Indicator ie at 1423 from
> Castle.  I thought with the short indicators I wouldn't be able to make it
> to Beehive so I just stayed at the Castle overlook.  Beehive did not start
> until 1438.  Go figure.  The bubblers at Beehive are almost quiet now, all I
> saw were a few wisps of steam for the week.
>
> East Scissor  Spring appears to have no overflow, when it  snowed the snow
> below it was untouched by overflow, even when it boiled.  West Scissor
> Spring continues to overflow intermittently.  The erupting hole on the
> uphill side of the boardwalk between Scissor and Depression was still
> boiling  but did not appear to be erupting when I watched it.  I do admit I
> did not get to watch it all that long.  Depression continues on the short
> intervals with an average of about 2 hours 40 minutes.  Uphill Geyser/Mouth
> was active but the eruptions barely made it to the surface.  I did not see
> the little geyser above Marmot Cave, but I did not get to watch that much.
> Little Cub appears to have intervals of about 50 minutes (Ralph's data is
> better).  Lion appears to still be having long series, but not  the very
> long 30+ eruption series it was having late last fall.  Again, I recommend
> Ralph Taylor's data.  I was not lucky enough to catch North Goggles, I don't
> know if it is still active.  Aurum was still having 3-4 hour intervals with
> the exception of the one day I decided to wait for it.  But it appears that
> one long interval was the exception.  I did not catch Plate.  Pump can
> really be impressive sometimes, with occasional eruptions to 20 feet.
>
> In the Sawmill group about all I saw were Tardy cycles.  In spite of that
> there were only two, perhaps three eruptions of Penta and no eruptions of
> Churn that I know of.   I think I only saw Sawmill once for the entire
> week.  On 4-26 Penta started early in the Tardy cycle with Oval pool well
> below full.  It had several periods of boiling over the main vent, starting
> small with each one a little higher.  Then at 1425 the three to four foot
> boiling just rose up to a full eruptions D-67 minutes.  After the eruption
> stopped while I wasn't watching it restarted, more like a steam phase
> eruption seen ie at 1544 with a height of 3-6 feet.  I forgot to put a
> marker down and a visitor later told me Penta erupted later that evening.
> The marker was replaced the next morning. and it stayed in place
> until 5-1-10 when Penta washed its marker between 1220 and 1832.  The new
> little hole I saw during the winter between UNNG-OTO and the  boardwalk it a
> thermal feature, it boils and steams when the Sawmill group fills, almost
> always active with UNNG-OTO.  Bulger Geyser was active with minors and
> majors seen on most days. Alas, Slurp did not  make an apparence.  Crystal
> Spring erupted once for me, odd because I was used to seeing it erupt in
> series but this was just one lone eruption.
>
> Grand gave me the most interesting eruption I have ever seen on 4-30-10.
> Grand had a three burst eruption with what I think was an afterburst.  I'm
> not completely sure, never having seen an afterburst before.  Grand started
> at 0937:34 and the start was really weak  it stopped after eight minutes
> twelve seconds, then gave a second burst which ended at 0947:17 .  I
> watched  for a while hoping for a third burst but the pool appeared to have
> drained so I started packing my gear.  Then at 0948:15 I noticed  the pool
> was full again and boiling and Boom!  the third  burst started.  After the
> eruption finished I looked at Penta to find the system was now in drain so I
> returned ot catch the start of W. Triplet.  Grand was booming 5-10 feet from
> the empty hole.  As I watched it kept getting higher, to 20 feet , then 30
> feet, then at 0953 I had four or five bursts to over a hundred feet.  During
> these bursts the pool half filled, then drained.  I continued to watch and
> after a few minutes the booming from Grands hole started again but this time
> only got to about 20 feet before quieting down.  I think this was an
> Afterburst, but I would appreciate any input, never having seen an
> afterburst before.
>
> Economic is cold but still has intermittent overflow.  The unnamed spring
> behind and to the right of Wave Pool is still active.  Chromatic pool had
> all the overflow for the week.  Oblong and I were on different schedules, we
> only saw each other from the distance.  I did have a visitor ask me what was
> the name of all those little vents in front of Giant?  He said he say
> several vents splashing to 1-2 inches. I asked if there was one that was
> higher (Feather) but he insisted not, only 1-2 inches.  So there may be hope
> for a hot period at Giant.
>
> Grotto was normal and I did catch a few Grotto Fountain/Grotto starts.
> Daisy was usually at about 2 hours 20-30 minutes but it did have one day of
> 3 hour intervals and one long night time interval of about 5-6 hours (I
> forgot to write down the electronic times).  For more info look at Ralph
> Taylors electronic data.
>
> Victory Geyser is now cold with algae growing in it and no overflow.  The
> hole looks interesting though, big rocks in it and no clear vent.
>
> Riverside was doing almost all long intervals for the week.  I never made
> it up to Artimesia or into the Old Road group.
>
> Castle was Castle, more majors than minors but  minors about every second
> or third day.  Tilt's Baby was quiet whenever I looked at it.
>
> Little Brother was quiet when I looked at it too.   Basin Spring is full
> again and overflowing.  I did watch it for about 15 minutes and it did
> nothing so I gave up.
>
> I hope to return for Memorial day week.  Hopefully I will see some of you
> there then.
>
> Stephen Eide
>
> ------------------------------
> Msg sent via CableONE.net MyMail - http://www.cableone.net
> _______________________________________________
> Geysers mailing list
> Geysers at lists.wallawalla.edu
> 
>
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 11:21:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: PopcornBabe99 <popcornbabe99 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Geysers] I absolutely agree with Scott Bryan.
To: geysers at lists.wallawalla.edu
Message-ID: <372742.87660.qm at web43142.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

 Keeping it short: I agree on every point. YNP is NOT McDonald's, NPS.  I don't want the beauty dragged down to the level of people too lazy, spoiled and apathetic to get out and experience the full wonders of the basin for themselves. Also, the boardwalks are wheelchair accessible; I have seen plenty of people in wheelchairs enjoying the basins. One additional: When I worked at Old Faithful, talk had it that there was a thermal feature under one corner of the Laurel dorm; the rooms above it were affected by heat and moisture...mold...? Also, rumored (?) to be thermal features under the Inn itself? Not sure, but it wouldn't surprise me. We all know how thermal features can pop up or reactivate.  
And I too am worried about access being limited or restricted. BUT, by the time I left YNP in 2008, the sheer numbers of people doing idiotic things around the boardwalks was way up (anecdotal here) from when I first worked OF in 1990 and 1991. Seriously, I think stupidity might be contagious. But that just argues for letting darwinism have its say (kidding, I think)... Seriously though, isn't there ENOUGH of a problem with the disconnected-from-reality "Disneyland" attitude towards wildlife and thermal features, without even MORE "make it safer" coming along?
It's past time that stupidity quite being rewarded, and education rather than damage control (people's actions-wise) be the focus. Just my two cents (ha'penny post-taxes.)
Kate Parry

--- On Mon, 5/10/10, geysers-request at lists.wallawalla.edu <geysers-request at lists.wallawalla.edu> wrote:


From: geysers-request at lists.wallawalla.edu <geysers-request at lists.wallawalla.edu>
Subject: Geysers Digest, Vol 1749, Issue 3
To: geysers at lists.wallawalla.edu
Date: Monday, May 10, 2010, 6:42 PM


Send Geysers mailing list submissions to
    geysers at lists.wallawalla.edu

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
    
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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    geysers-owner at lists.wallawalla.edu

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Geysers digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Trip report 4-26 to 5-1 UGB (stepheneide at cableone.net)
   2. Re: Old Faithful scoping document (Janet Johns)
   3. Re: Making Comments On Old Faithful Use Plan (Bruce Jensen)
   4. Old Faithful EA (Karl and Lori Hoppe)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 15:32:01 -0700
From: "stepheneide at cableone.net" <stepheneide at cableone.net>
Subject: [Geysers] Trip report 4-26 to 5-1 UGB
To: geysers at lists.wallawalla.edu
Message-ID: <1340.1273530721 at cableone.net>
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 23:15:32 -0400
From: "Janet Johns" <pinkconemtgo at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Geysers] Old Faithful scoping document
To: "Geyser Observation Reports" <geysers at lists.wallawalla.edu>
Message-ID: <AEC4B18885C84BBD9C8019224C9ED560 at IBM802FBFDA3DC>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Well Curmudgeon.  I agree.  Where you say scary...so do I.  Resource management and protection in EA's always make me feel scared about my access being denied.  Boardwalks moved back (ie Grotto and Old Faithful) or trails removed (so many I can't even number).   Its why I will write about continuing to see, hear, and smell the geysers everywhere.  I so seldom post here but this will get me to beg and plead with everyone on this list.  If you like our present access to the geyser basin...make it known on the EA by the due date.   No shuttle to Morning Glory....no viewing Grand from the River Bank.  Protection can be by the rangers through education.  As for congestion......well park and walk....and if you can't walk...then maybe a bike or wheelchair will do.  You must make your opinion know with anecdotes.

Janet Johns




From: TSBryan at aol.com 
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 7:40 PM
To: geysers at lists.wallawalla.edu 
Subject: [Geysers] Old Faithful scoping document


The Curmudgeon here. I certainly will submit comments to the "Old Faithful Area Comprehensive Plan" stuff. But here a few items for your thoughts, keyed to the pages of the 4-page "Public Scoping Newsletter May 2010". I provide these thoughts, in part, knowing that some NPS people see this listserv.

Page 1--
-- In the "Dear Friends" column, was it really necessary to cite on five different occasions some form of "resources"? Talk about overkill.
-- And really, have these "resources" ... "provided... human... inspiration for THOUSANDS of years." I mean, really, thousands?
-- In the second column, can we please have a definition of just what comprises the "Old Faithful developed area" within the context of this document? That is, how far does it extend; does it include the boardwalk areas; does it extend as far as Biscuit Basin; or might it end just below the "lower store"?

Page 2--
Under "Why is this Action Needed?"
-- Item #1: I didn't know hydrothermal features could "effect" nearby buildings. But maybe the silica on the Lodge windows qualifies as an "effect" (?).
-- Item #2: Good lord. How many times has this topic been addressed by the National Park Service? It should have been addressed in the 1960s, before the existing road alignments were put in. Now that they are in, and now that the entire area is constructed predicated on the existing alignments, what could happen? I mean, really!
-- Item #3: They have to wait a whole 90 minutes? Oh, golly gee. Could they possibly go look at something else? Oh, yeah; there's a gift shop over there. And is it SO far from the parking lot. [Don't kowtow to the out-of-shape American public, NPS.]

Under "Resources & Concerns"
-- Public health and safety" -- This scares me. More railings in the geyser basins; boardwalk removal?

Page 3--
Under "Visitor Use"
-- "Provide the visitor with opportunities"....: As if these opportunities don't exist now?
-- "Increase visitor understanding...": Gosh, was I wrong in thinking that a big, new (overpriced) multimillion dollar "Visitor Education Center" was to open to the public in this very calendar year? Did they not plan to use it to help visitors understand the area? Why not? Is there in this item an admission of NPS interpretive failure?
-- "Improve vehicle and pedestrian circulation and parking": See page 2, item 2, above. Folks, unless you plan to do a LOT of MAJOR construction and reconstruction, you are many years past correcting this ridiculous situation... a correction that I'm certain would involve cutting [gasp] some trees.

Under "Public Health & Safety"
-- "Address needs of visitors exposed to open and hot conditions and long distances": Well, as with page 2, item 3, above... Maybe this is when they install a shuttle system, complete with refreshment stands at 
Castle, Grotto, and Morning Glory...? Aw, c'mon dammit; this is a national park, and it should be a natural, outdoor area complete with all environmental consequences.

Under Resources
-- "Protect... The fragile and dynamic hydrothermal Upper Geyser Basin": I'm scared, again.

Page 4
"Do you have other ideas......": You bet, but I'll only mention one here: Whittlesey might comment on this, and I'm pretty sure M. A. Bellingham did so a year or two or three ago...The trees in the parking lot below the Old Faithful Inn, which almost completely impede the view from the Inn (even the from balcony) into the geyser basin do not belong there. These trees are not natural, right? What is the justification for allowing them to remain, especially if this whole process is designed (page 1) "to enhance the visitor experience at the Old Faithful area." Let them see the view that was afforded the visitors of a century ago. See attached photo dated 1912.

OK, I'll shut up.

Scott Bryan


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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 07:26:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bruce Jensen <bpnjensen at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Geysers] Making Comments On Old Faithful Use Plan
To: Geyser Observation Reports <geysers at lists.wallawalla.edu>
Message-ID: <768273.3377.qm at web112611.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I intend to ask for:
 
* Removal of volunteer trees in front of the Inn
* A Boardwalk to Purple Pools - you never know!
* As you suggest, no reduced access.
* Further positive increases in light pollution reduction
* If time and &&& permit, a downbasin streaming webcam that might capture Grottto, Giant's platform, Riverside, F&M or some combination thereof...only provided it can be done with minimal environmenal disruption.
 
Bruce Jensen
~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding."
~ Albert Einstein

--- On Sat, 5/8/10, Janet Johns <janet.johns5 at verizon.net> wrote:


From: Janet Johns <janet.johns5 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Geysers] Making Comments On Old Faithful Use Plan
To: "Geyser Observation Reports" <geysers at lists.wallawalla.edu>
Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 6:24 PM





Thanks Lynn for this very important opportunity.  
 
My comment will be centered on continued access to all upper geyser basin features so that I can hear and see and smell the geysers and additional personnel to give interpretion walks and monitor people usage.
 
What are other people writing?
 
Janet
 




From: Lynn Stephens 
Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 10:27 AM
To: geysers at lists.wallawalla.edu 
Subject: [Geysers] Making Comments On Old Faithful Use Plan

There is a short-time frame to make comments.  Deadline is midnight June 7.
 
Here's a direct link to the "scoping newsletter"
 
http://parkplanning.nps.gov/document.cfm?parkId=111&projectId=31367&documentID=33798
 
This page has links to
 
(1) pdf file with "newsletter" about the Plan
(2) Comments--http://parkplanning.nps.gov/commentForm.cfm?parkID=111&projectID=31367&documentId=33798
 
I'm trying to make this as easy as possible for people because I think it is really important to provide input.
 
Lynn Stephens



The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. Get busy. 



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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 09:21:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Karl and Lori Hoppe <karlori at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Geysers] Old Faithful EA
To: Geyser List <geysers at lists.wallawalla.edu>
Message-ID: <218836.11546.qm at web34507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

According to the newsletter that is accessible from the link that Lynn posted (thank you, Lynn), "this is the time when any interested individual, organization, or agency can provide relevant information or suggestions for consideration in this plan."  (emphasis added)

Is GOSA/the GOSA board of directors planning on submitting input from the geyser community at large?

I will certainly be sharing my thoughts, mostly revolving around accessibility and staffing (and a few trees impeding my view of Lion from the Old Faithful Inn), but wondered if our voice would also be heard via the organization?

Karl Hoppe


      
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